Curse

Pugs Not Drugs · Jun 25, 2011, 12:32 AM // 00:32

The Problems
Random arenas has really diverged from its original purpose, which was to be a casual PvP arena. People that wanted competitive 4v4 would go to TA, and people that wanted some high end PvP would do HA/GvG. Now, however, people are punished for running bars that are not the Meta, and certain team composition is needed to win. This happened because of two main reasons: a. the player base got "better," and b. TA was removed. You used to be able to win in arenas with sup-optimal bars because chances are, the enemies had one or two players with bad bars too. However, the game is now old, so most players are experienced, and those that aren't experienced can just go on PvX and get Meta bars, so you need to run the same bars as them to stay at a competitive level. This wasn't even a problem until the removal of TA because most people that took winning seriously moved to RA, meaning the stakes were higher then ever.

Now many of you are thinking "Isn't that a good thing? People actually have to run optimal builds and get better, rather than running garbage and still getting wins." The problem lies in the fact that Guild Wars isn't balanced for 4v4. Stance monks and anti melee are pretty much necessary in getting a win streak in RA, and people are punished for running melee other than dervishes. So it just boils down to luck. You need to have 4 competent players running decent bars, because most likely there will another team that does, and they will roll you. I first noticed this because it seemed that whenever I entered RA, the other team always had a monk. At first I thought it was bad luck, then I thought it was paranoia. But after like 15 matches in a row with me having no monk, and the other team having one, it made sense. Teams with a monk pretty much always beat teams that don't have one, so its simple probability that I face them more often. It becomes a matter of pressing "Enter Button" and hoping that I get one. I realized that my experience with RA consisted of 6 or so losses in a row in which I didn't have a monk and the other team did, and then getting a monk and going on a 10 game streak beating teams without monks, and repeating.

The Solution
Now this isn't a QQ thread, believe me. I think the solution to this would be giving players a new party after each win in Random Arenas. This would not have been possible before with the old Gladiator Title, but it fits perfectly with the new one. As far as I can see, here are the pros and cons.

Pros
--Eliminates the problem of syncing altogether
--Eliminates the need for a certain team build to win
--Brings the casual back to RA

Cons
--The Gladiator title is trickier than before?
--I'm sure there are more, but my brain is fried

Ximvotn · Jun 25, 2011, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Would take too long to obtain any titles as it didn't take long enough entering and hoping for a team with a monk. I think less players would bother with it besides those who truly want to random for no purpose at all.

Master Ketsu · Jun 25, 2011, 01:30 AM // 01:30

The only fix RA needs is to fix syncing in a way that actually fixes it.

farmerfez · Jun 25, 2011, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

So it just boils down to luck.

Thats the whole point of RA herp derp

Missing HB · Jun 25, 2011, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

The problem lies in the fact that Guild Wars isn't balanced for 4v4. Stance monks and anti melee are pretty much necessary in getting a win streak in RA, and people are punished for running melee other than dervishes. So it just boils down to luck. You need to have 4 competent players running decent bars, because most likely there will another team that does, and they will roll you. I first noticed this because it seemed that whenever I entered RA, the other team always had a monk. At first I thought it was bad luck, then I thought it was paranoia. But after like 15 matches in a row with me having no monk, and the other team having one, it made sense. Teams with a monk pretty much always beat teams that don't have one, so its simple probability that I face them more often. It becomes a matter of pressing "Enter Button" and hoping that I get one. I realized that my experience with RA consisted of 6 or so losses in a row in which I didn't have a monk and the other team did, and then getting a monk and going on a 10 game streak beating teams without monks, and repeating.

This sums up RA very well. But in my opinion , it can't be reversed. But , the main problem for me is usually those too OP metas with the monk , which make it close to impossible for teams with no monks :
- Rez rupting , especially those ranger bars with 3 rupts don't really fit the format in my opinion... it's like you made 1 kill you won , considering all will try to use rez while the rest of your team is killing them
- Bars which do a huge damage and a good pressure on opponent without much skill required such as Bsurge , 123 Earth Ele , esurge with empathy spam etc don't fit good neither

Those skills can be good and determine winners in a truly good fight from TA or Codex , but on a fight in RA , it's just completly ridiculous , especially when one team has ,no healer....
But well , the 2 wins instead of 5 for title was already a good move in my opinion...

chullster · Jun 25, 2011, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

The only fix RA needs is to fix syncing in a way that actually fixes it.

QFT

I say adopt the new CB method, randomize the teams for second match after winning the first.

People who need their friends to hold their hand can still sync first match, but then you get randomized for second, then staying in that team if you continue to win.

Would match nicely to the new glad-points-after-2-wins change, you get points in random arenas only from the random team you end up with.

Thrilla Killa · Jun 25, 2011, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

The only fix RA needs is to fix syncing in a way that actually fixes it.

Truth. Syncing is getting out of hand now, it really needs to be addressed. And when you get reported for leeching because you messed up their sync, that is the final straw for me.

Swingline · Jun 25, 2011, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Hardcore solution: Cap RA at 5 wins, Make glad points 5 each win. if u get to 5 you get 25 points for a total of 50.

P.S. oh yea remove strongboxes from game(not gonna happen)

KotCR · Jun 25, 2011, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

Teams with a monk pretty much always beat teams that don't have one, so its simple probability that I face them more often. It becomes a matter of pressing "Enter Button" and hoping that I get one. I realized that my experience with RA consisted of 6 or so losses in a row in which I didn't have a monk and the other team did, and then getting a monk and going on a 10 game streak beating teams without monks, and repeating.

Untrue.

I've had the full 25 wins several times without a Monk in my team, beating several Monk teams along the way (though you do still need someone who is capable of taking out a Monk, be it a Mesmer, enchantment stripping 'Sin, or a Hammer Warrior, or whatever). All you need is people to not be running GvG/HA Meta Builds and to be smart and bring a decent self-heal, instead of simply hoping to get a monk. Condition and hex removal somewhere can help, but isn't strictly required depending on the makeup of your team - as a self-heal can balance off much of the disadvantages these hexes or conditions may impose. Afterall, everybody being able to heal themselves was originally how the game was intended (look at how they are making sure it stays that way with GW2). It may not be that way anymore because of how the game has evolved, but in RA it still makes sense. A team made up of characters with individually balanced builds, can beat a team that is simply overall balanced.

Besides, having a Monk may usually help, but just because you get a Monk doesn't mean it'll be a good one. And even if you do get a good one, if the other players on your team suck (don't pressure right, incorrectly prioritise interrupts, don't protect your monk or backline when required adequently, or just have all the melee on your team stupidly bum-rush the opposing Monk and attempt to kill him through a combination Guardian/Bonniti's/Disciplined Stance while suffering from anti-melee hexes or with a blindbot about), you are going to lose anyway.

I'll agree though that the loss of TA has caused no end of problems in RA. The people who want to play organised 4vs4 probably want to run Meta builds with an organised team and they can't in Codex Arena (and as they are having to rely on PvX wiki in the first place, aren't truly good enough at the game to create effective builds from scratch with what might be on offer in CA that day), so instead they sync together in RA. I don't need to go into the problems this causes for the balance of the format.

But also, to further with the problems caused by the loss of TA, as a result of people who think Meta is law and the only thing that works, now come to RA instead to play and flame people who are just playing for fun or want to try something new or different for a change (that doesn't mean they have totally useless builds but might not be running something optimal, but often the player matters more than the build anyway), or simply are being smart and building their build for RA not GvG/HA. Which at one point was the spirit of RA and what made it so enjoyable.

You can turn off the chat and ignore them, but this ruins your team's ability to communicate with each other (and basic communication and calls is still crucial to being successful). But the real problem here is these obnoxious players tend to leave at the 2 second mark after a match to screw over the current team (who may be on a win streak) out of simple grieviance and self-inadequecy at build dseign by reducing their subsequent match to a 3vs4.

So the two key things to do to fix RA are:
- Fix the bug that allows players to leave two seconds before the next match starts without penality.
- Fix syncing

But in the wider scope of things to truly fix RA you need to do the following:
- Reintroduce TA. It's the only way to cause the current undesirable players that make RA unfun and unfriendly to leave it.
- Not all classes work aswell in PvP in the grand scheme of things in a 4-player format as they do in an 8-player format. This also needs to be addressed.

Full randomisation after each map could definetly go some way to helping with all this, but I feel it'd be more a case of hiding from the problems rather than actually fixing them.

Master Ketsu · Jun 25, 2011, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrilla Killa

Truth. Syncing is getting out of hand now, it really needs to be addressed. And when you get reported for leeching because you messed up their sync, that is the final straw for me.

IMO when they actually go far enough to abuse reporting, they should have their gladranks reduced to 0. When they are doing it for the E-peen, the only effective punishment is E-castration.

Kanyatta · Jun 25, 2011, 05:40 PM // 17:40

I feel that if Team Arenas were brought back, the good players would prefer to play there, rather than syncing RA. At least, that's what I noticed when TA was popular and there were actually high-end GvGers.

But I agree with one of the above posters: I have been reported for leeching a handful of times because "I messed up their sync". That pissed me off to no end. I don't really know a way to figure out who's syncing to be able to punish them, but typically if you're on or against a team with 3 bronze/silver/gold capes, you know something fishy is up.

Master Ketsu · Jun 25, 2011, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Oh, and absolutely reintroduce TA. The current strongbox system is the kind of reward item that TA needed and instead RA gets it. This only encourages syncing.

DoomFrost · Jun 26, 2011, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Increase the team comp in RA and Codex to 6 rather than 4.

Master Ketsu · Jun 27, 2011, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoomFrost

Increase the team comp in RA and Codex to 6 rather than 4.

Would make things worse. It sounds more fun then it actually is.

One of the things that made TA great is that having only 4 people meant that it was much more skill dependent for those 4 people. In HA you can still get away with putting a bad player on a bitch bar. You really couldn't get away with that in TA ( Unless you felt like only getting 1 or 2 gladpoints if lucky ). So while TA wasn't the most popular arena, it did have a higher "skill-ceiling" than HA did. Codex should remain 4v4 for this reason.

In RA, while the team comp from TA is gone the skill dependance is still there. Increasing the number of people would just increase the reliance you would have on your team members making it even more frustrating to get a noob team. You can still carry mediocre people to 5 wins in RA if you are good and using a good build. This would no longer be possible if it was a 6v6.

Missing HB · Jun 27, 2011, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Oh, and absolutely reintroduce TA. The current strongbox system is the kind of reward item that TA needed and instead RA gets it. This only encourages syncing.

The problem with " play xx format because of the reward" is people's behaviour... Basically, due to the kind of opponent you face in TA and Codex , people rather play RA or even HA... Then there are 2 options :

- people start syncing accounts in TA because too low activity
- " box farmers" go back to codex because fights are easier and TA is dead

However , i surely agree with this as long as TA replaces Codex

Cors Seel · Jun 27, 2011, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Maybe this isn't on topic, but another thing i hate is you got kicked at 24 because one of you teammates got 25... This happens alot and i think they could easily fix this by just kicking the person who got 25

MithranArkanere · Jun 27, 2011, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Reintroducing TA will NOT help fixing syncing in any way.

Why? Those that sync do so to get an unfair advantage over those that do not by bringing synergy in their skill bars.
Players that play properly without syncing will get synergy just by mere chance.

In TA, there is no such advantage, because everyone can bring as much synergy as they can.
So, those that sync will stay away from TA, stick to syncing in RA, and blatantly lie about it in community sites, saying that won't happen, when it surely would, as it did in the past.
People preferred to sync in RA, thrash random teams with their synergized synced team, and /resign when they get to TA, because their unfair advantage was lost when they got to TA.

Of course, not everyone did that, but the number of people that did that was shamefully high, to the point that it lead to TA closing down.

Too late to bringing it back now, so forget about it.

Xiaquin · Jun 27, 2011, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

Pros
--Eliminates the problem of syncing altogether
--Eliminates the need for a certain team build to win
--Brings the casual back to RA

I'm in the "casual" category, and what drives me away from RA is the same problem that kept me away from TA, HB, etc.: balancing. No more, no less. I could be happy if the "trash" as it is called goes away, though my own definition might go further than many of you veterans.

jazilla · Jun 27, 2011, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

IMO when they actually go far enough to abuse reporting, they should have their gladranks reduced to 0. When they are doing it for the E-peen, the only effective punishment is E-castration.

I agree with this but not getting rid of the entirety of their rank. Losing points from your current rank after say, 5 infractions sounds good. Doubling it for secondary and tertiary infractions etc. would do it as well and would also keep people from just reporting people wily-nily. But I like it. This should also happen for GvG ranks.

To Chicken To Die · Jun 29, 2011, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ximvotn

Would take too long to obtain any titles as it didn't take long enough entering and hoping for a team with a monk. I think less players would bother with it besides those who truly want to random for no purpose at all.

Uhhh no syncers? only people that play RA cus they want to? No title and strongbox farmers?
MY god you have seen the light on the other side of the tunnel.

But ye after the introduction of strongboxes there are countless of syncers and yes they abuse the report system and no there will be no action taken against these players if there is even a person thats looking at the reports at all. Support isn't really support unless you email them were they have to respond wich will prop gets you an copy/past answer to use the in-game functions. Cus those have an automat system with dishoner but backfire aswell. And it is still sad that GW doesn't aknowledge syncing as match manipulation. but that are old discussion that never have resulted in any results let alone any glimp of good will devs have to solve the problem.
So the best solution is to go with the farm and try to mess up as many sync teams by using there methods of entering and forget about any real PvP format as RA.